Comments on: Rules for Working With a Patent Attorney http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2009/10/03/rules-for-working-with-a-patent-attorney/id=6434/ Patents, Software Patents, Patent Applications & Patent Law Thu, 09 Feb 2012 01:33:50 +0000 hourly 1 By: Rphael Sheneman http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2009/10/03/rules-for-working-with-a-patent-attorney/id=6434/#comment-8754 Rphael Sheneman Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:55:56 +0000 http://www.ipwatchdog.com/?p=6434#comment-8754 It is an intersting view point. From where I stand as a client I see a lack of a reasonable investment from an attorney to take a call is about 100 pound foolish. In most industries, it is called business development and when you don't do it something terrible happens, nothing! If the practice is so successful then I fully understand the stance. However; it also means that the practice has reached capacity and will almost certainly find a hard time to scale. It is an intersting view point. From where I stand as a client I see a lack of a reasonable investment from an attorney to take a call is about 100 pound foolish. In most industries, it is called business development and when you don’t do it something terrible happens, nothing!

If the practice is so successful then I fully understand the stance. However; it also means that the practice has reached capacity and will almost certainly find a hard time to scale.

]]> By: Gene Quinn http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2009/10/03/rules-for-working-with-a-patent-attorney/id=6434/#comment-8732 Gene Quinn Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:31:48 +0000 http://www.ipwatchdog.com/?p=6434#comment-8732 Rphael- You are unnecessarily eliminating highly qualified attorneys. Why you would be willing to spend $200,000 for legal services and expect a free telephone consultation is beyond me. That seems to be the definition of penny wise and pound foolish. There are appropriate business paths to follow, and those who do not want to follow them are free to do whatever they like, including going to an attorney who has enough free time to speak with whoever calls. In my practice we have a process whereby calls are initially handled by staff and if they prove to be serious enough then and only then does an attorney get involved. There is simply no other way for me to handle the volume of inquiries I get. If I talked to everyone who called I would be on the phone all day long and get nothing done, and also likely not have any new clients to show for the effort. Chatting with an attorney and being comfortable is certainly fine, but demanding to speak with an attorney before you have even indicated what you are calling about and whether likely fee is within reach is not appropriate. Good luck to you Rphael. -Gene Rphael-

You are unnecessarily eliminating highly qualified attorneys. Why you would be willing to spend $200,000 for legal services and expect a free telephone consultation is beyond me. That seems to be the definition of penny wise and pound foolish.

There are appropriate business paths to follow, and those who do not want to follow them are free to do whatever they like, including going to an attorney who has enough free time to speak with whoever calls. In my practice we have a process whereby calls are initially handled by staff and if they prove to be serious enough then and only then does an attorney get involved. There is simply no other way for me to handle the volume of inquiries I get. If I talked to everyone who called I would be on the phone all day long and get nothing done, and also likely not have any new clients to show for the effort. Chatting with an attorney and being comfortable is certainly fine, but demanding to speak with an attorney before you have even indicated what you are calling about and whether likely fee is within reach is not appropriate.

Good luck to you Rphael.

-Gene

]]> By: Rphael Sheneman http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2009/10/03/rules-for-working-with-a-patent-attorney/id=6434/#comment-8731 Rphael Sheneman Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:18:18 +0000 http://www.ipwatchdog.com/?p=6434#comment-8731 Speaking of myself as a client who paid in one year in excess of $200,000 of several attorney and legal fees. I have never worked with an attorney without first conducting a free telephone consultation. At the end of the day, you only work with someone you like and trust, this is almost hard to come by with attorney. Speaking of myself as a client who paid in one year in excess of $200,000 of several attorney and legal fees. I have never worked with an attorney without first conducting a free telephone consultation. At the end of the day, you only work with someone you like and trust, this is almost hard to come by with attorney.

]]> By: Gene Quinn http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2009/10/03/rules-for-working-with-a-patent-attorney/id=6434/#comment-8639 Gene Quinn Mon, 12 Oct 2009 14:35:31 +0000 http://www.ipwatchdog.com/?p=6434#comment-8639 Dale- The market is VERY different for entry-level patent attorneys vs. those with even 1 year of experience. Once you get 1 to 3 years of experience moving from firm to firm becomes exceptionally easy. The question is how do you get 1 to 3 years of experience? During recessions there is sometimes a reconfiguration of the patent market, and in this recession it seems to be worse then in many past recessions, likely because it has been so long and so deep. The big firms have been hit hardest, but not all big firms. Many big firms are booming even charging $500 to $1,000 an hour, but those that are booming are top of the line, second to none in terms of quality. Many big firms are just big and priced accordingly. This is not to say they are bad, but for many firms clients are seeing that they do not get $300 to $500 an hour extra and are fleeing to smaller firms located where overhead is not so high. So if I could give advice to those looking for jobs it would be to look at small firms to mid-size firms. That is where the growth typically is during recessions and in this recession the growth seems to be quite enormous in that space. I will reach out to you via e-mail for more. -Gene Dale-

The market is VERY different for entry-level patent attorneys vs. those with even 1 year of experience. Once you get 1 to 3 years of experience moving from firm to firm becomes exceptionally easy. The question is how do you get 1 to 3 years of experience?

During recessions there is sometimes a reconfiguration of the patent market, and in this recession it seems to be worse then in many past recessions, likely because it has been so long and so deep. The big firms have been hit hardest, but not all big firms. Many big firms are booming even charging $500 to $1,000 an hour, but those that are booming are top of the line, second to none in terms of quality. Many big firms are just big and priced accordingly. This is not to say they are bad, but for many firms clients are seeing that they do not get $300 to $500 an hour extra and are fleeing to smaller firms located where overhead is not so high. So if I could give advice to those looking for jobs it would be to look at small firms to mid-size firms. That is where the growth typically is during recessions and in this recession the growth seems to be quite enormous in that space.

I will reach out to you via e-mail for more.

-Gene

]]> By: Dale http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2009/10/03/rules-for-working-with-a-patent-attorney/id=6434/#comment-8633 Dale Mon, 12 Oct 2009 05:28:48 +0000 http://www.ipwatchdog.com/?p=6434#comment-8633 Gene, I noticed you said the following: "It is absolutely critical to understand, particularly now during a recession, that patent attorneys have a ton of work and typically do not need more clients. A recession is boom times for virtually all patent attorneys." If it's such a boom time for patent attorneys, why do I never seem to see any job postings for entry-level patent attorneys (i.e., patent attorneys who are registered, but have never worked in prosecution)? Is the market for entry-level patent attorneys/agents that different from the market for experienced people? FYI: I'm licensed in Kentucky, have a chemical background (BS and MS in ChemE) and passed the USPTO exam earlier this year, and would like to find a position in prosecution. I'm open to relocating, since I'm well aware that Kentucky is far from the center of the patent universe. Where do I start? Gene, I noticed you said the following:

“It is absolutely critical to understand, particularly now during a recession, that patent attorneys have a ton of work and typically do not need more clients. A recession is boom times for virtually all patent attorneys.”

If it’s such a boom time for patent attorneys, why do I never seem to see any job postings for entry-level patent attorneys (i.e., patent attorneys who are registered, but have never worked in prosecution)? Is the market for entry-level patent attorneys/agents that different from the market for experienced people?

FYI: I’m licensed in Kentucky, have a chemical background (BS and MS in ChemE) and passed the USPTO exam earlier this year, and would like to find a position in prosecution. I’m open to relocating, since I’m well aware that Kentucky is far from the center of the patent universe. Where do I start?

]]> By: Gene Quinn http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2009/10/03/rules-for-working-with-a-patent-attorney/id=6434/#comment-8481 Gene Quinn Tue, 06 Oct 2009 01:55:53 +0000 http://www.ipwatchdog.com/?p=6434#comment-8481 Sandra- I do not speak on behalf of you, obviously. It is also obvious that you do not get as many inquiries as I do because if I spoke with everyone who called or e-mailed who was looking for information I would talk to inventors for free all day long. I have a staff and we follow up with inventors and provide them with information, even when they are clearly not going to turn into clients. I also have spent thousands of hours creating a resource here at IPWatchdog.com. If you choose to speak with all inventors and provide them with a free consultation that is very good for you, and I am glad there are patent attorneys out there like you to provide such a valuable, yet time intensive resource. If you would like I would be happy to pass your telephone number and e-mail address along to those who call me and e-mail me looking for a free consultation. In years past I would talk to those folks to the greatest extent possible, but almost universally these folks would never turn into clients. Those who initiate contact via my contact form are far more serious and convert at a very high level. So simply put, I do not have the time to provide free consultations. Between my writing and doing legal work for paying clients I just do not have the time available to spend hours a day chatting with inventors for free. I will only pick one bone substantively with what you write. I personally think that one of the biggest problems with attorneys of all types is that they share your view regarding never having enough clients. When you say that you will "never take the mindset that [you] do not need more clients" that sounds extraordinarily typical of most attorneys. How any attorney can take such a view is beyond me. Every attorney I know will at least from time to time not be in a position to take on additional work without compromising the quality of the work they are doing, or force clients to unreasonably wait for services. That is not my style. I take only the work we can do in a reasonable time, and at a high quality. I personally find that to be most fair to the clients and in keeping with my own morals/philosophy. I have no trouble telling clients when we are at capacity and suggesting that they consider working with another attorney. Perhaps I am overreacting to what you write, and perhaps you are never near capacity and that is why you have time to speak with inventors personally. In my experience there is no such thing as a 10 minute phone call with inventors. I don't know what useful can be said in 10 minutes given the nature of advice needing to be personal and specific, particularly in our area of expertise where one-size-fits-all advice is simply not possible. In any event, if you can confirm for me your interest I will instruct my staff to direct those looking for a free consultation to you. Thanks. -Gene Sandra-

I do not speak on behalf of you, obviously. It is also obvious that you do not get as many inquiries as I do because if I spoke with everyone who called or e-mailed who was looking for information I would talk to inventors for free all day long. I have a staff and we follow up with inventors and provide them with information, even when they are clearly not going to turn into clients. I also have spent thousands of hours creating a resource here at IPWatchdog.com. If you choose to speak with all inventors and provide them with a free consultation that is very good for you, and I am glad there are patent attorneys out there like you to provide such a valuable, yet time intensive resource.

If you would like I would be happy to pass your telephone number and e-mail address along to those who call me and e-mail me looking for a free consultation. In years past I would talk to those folks to the greatest extent possible, but almost universally these folks would never turn into clients. Those who initiate contact via my contact form are far more serious and convert at a very high level. So simply put, I do not have the time to provide free consultations. Between my writing and doing legal work for paying clients I just do not have the time available to spend hours a day chatting with inventors for free.

I will only pick one bone substantively with what you write. I personally think that one of the biggest problems with attorneys of all types is that they share your view regarding never having enough clients. When you say that you will “never take the mindset that [you] do not need more clients” that sounds extraordinarily typical of most attorneys. How any attorney can take such a view is beyond me. Every attorney I know will at least from time to time not be in a position to take on additional work without compromising the quality of the work they are doing, or force clients to unreasonably wait for services. That is not my style. I take only the work we can do in a reasonable time, and at a high quality. I personally find that to be most fair to the clients and in keeping with my own morals/philosophy. I have no trouble telling clients when we are at capacity and suggesting that they consider working with another attorney.

Perhaps I am overreacting to what you write, and perhaps you are never near capacity and that is why you have time to speak with inventors personally. In my experience there is no such thing as a 10 minute phone call with inventors. I don’t know what useful can be said in 10 minutes given the nature of advice needing to be personal and specific, particularly in our area of expertise where one-size-fits-all advice is simply not possible.

In any event, if you can confirm for me your interest I will instruct my staff to direct those looking for a free consultation to you.

Thanks.

-Gene

]]> By: Sandra M. Sovinski, Esq. http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2009/10/03/rules-for-working-with-a-patent-attorney/id=6434/#comment-8479 Sandra M. Sovinski, Esq. Tue, 06 Oct 2009 00:45:35 +0000 http://www.ipwatchdog.com/?p=6434#comment-8479 As a patent attorney in practice for almost 10 years, I am compelled to respond to this article. I whole-heartedly disagree with Mr. Quinn's characterization of patent attorneys. I regularly and willingly speak, for free, by telephone and in no-charge initial consultations, and have engaged countless clients, both corporate and individual, and have continued to represent such clients for years, with growing porfolios. I welcome prospective client questioning, and, in fact, encourage them. Moreover, I find it to be rewarding to have the opportunity to assist those seeking information, whether or not they become a client, in much the same way as personal and professional reward is derived from speaking to local entrepreneurial groups, incubators, and other organizations. Additionally, and also contrary to Mr. Quinn, I believe and direct my practice to be receptive to my clients' preferences, such as regarding communication. That is, while I may prefer a particular mode, I absolutely honor the preferences of my clients. Efficiency is not a one way street; what may be efficient for me may not be so for my client. Lastly, no matter the number of clients and volume of work that I have, I will never take the mindset that I do not need more clients. Quite the opposite. This is not coming from someone fresh from law school, but in view of years of experience, and my perspective is not mine alone, but is shared by the majority of patent attorneys that I have practiced along side for the past decade. I am not doing my clients a favor; they are granting me an opportunity to serve their legal needs. The day that I believe my time is too valuable to take ten minutes to have a conversation with an inventor, that I am somehow superior to someone who could possess the exclusive rights to an incredible innovation, but for a few dollars, is the day that I should stop practicing. Mr. Quinn, please do not speak on behalf of this patent attorney. As a patent attorney in practice for almost 10 years, I am compelled to respond to this article. I whole-heartedly disagree with Mr. Quinn’s characterization of patent attorneys. I regularly and willingly speak, for free, by telephone and in no-charge initial consultations, and have engaged countless clients, both corporate and individual, and have continued to represent such clients for years, with growing porfolios. I welcome prospective client questioning, and, in fact, encourage them. Moreover, I find it to be rewarding to have the opportunity to assist those seeking information, whether or not they become a client, in much the same way as personal and professional reward is derived from speaking to local entrepreneurial groups, incubators, and other organizations.

Additionally, and also contrary to Mr. Quinn, I believe and direct my practice to be receptive to my clients’ preferences, such as regarding communication. That is, while I may prefer a particular mode, I absolutely honor the preferences of my clients. Efficiency is not a one way street; what may be efficient for me may not be so for my client.

Lastly, no matter the number of clients and volume of work that I have, I will never take the mindset that I do not need more clients. Quite the opposite. This is not coming from someone fresh from law school, but in view of years of experience, and my perspective is not mine alone, but is shared by the majority of patent attorneys that I have practiced along side for the past decade.

I am not doing my clients a favor; they are granting me an opportunity to serve their legal needs. The day that I believe my time is too valuable to take ten minutes to have a conversation with an inventor, that I am somehow superior to someone who could possess the exclusive rights to an incredible innovation, but for a few dollars, is the day that I should stop practicing.

Mr. Quinn, please do not speak on behalf of this patent attorney.

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