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	<title>Comments on: Quinn and Koepsell Discuss Gene Patents on GritTV</title>
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	<link>http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2009/11/02/quinn-and-koepsell-discuss-gene-patents-on-grittv/id=7087/</link>
	<description>Patents, Software Patents, Patent Applications &#38; Patent Law</description>
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		<title>By: Shughart&#8217;s Defense of IP &#124; Austrian Economics Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2009/11/02/quinn-and-koepsell-discuss-gene-patents-on-grittv/id=7087/#comment-10863</link>
		<dc:creator>Shughart&#8217;s Defense of IP &#124; Austrian Economics Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jan 2010 06:03:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ipwatchdog.com/?p=7087#comment-10863</guid>
		<description>[...] dead early? (This reminded me of a bizarre argument made by patent attorney Gene Quin, noted in this post. In an online discussion, IP opponent David Koepsell had mentioned &#8220;that in the 19th and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] dead early? (This reminded me of a bizarre argument made by patent attorney Gene Quin, noted in this post. In an online discussion, IP opponent David Koepsell had mentioned &#8220;that in the 19th and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Shughart’s Defense of IP</title>
		<link>http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2009/11/02/quinn-and-koepsell-discuss-gene-patents-on-grittv/id=7087/#comment-10847</link>
		<dc:creator>Shughart’s Defense of IP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jan 2010 07:44:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ipwatchdog.com/?p=7087#comment-10847</guid>
		<description>
[...] dead early? (This reminded me of a bizarre argument made by patent attorney Gene Quin, noted in this post. In an online discussion, IP opponent David Koepsell had mentioned &#8220;that in the 19th and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] dead early? (This reminded me of a bizarre argument made by patent attorney Gene Quin, noted in this post. In an online discussion, IP opponent David Koepsell had mentioned &#8220;that in the 19th and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Sonali Roychdoudhury</title>
		<link>http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2009/11/02/quinn-and-koepsell-discuss-gene-patents-on-grittv/id=7087/#comment-9263</link>
		<dc:creator>Sonali Roychdoudhury</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:45:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ipwatchdog.com/?p=7087#comment-9263</guid>
		<description>I share Rich&#039;s frustration in the failed single entity clinical trial of Myriad&#039;s patented products. Dale makes a very important point when he says that Patents do not require a lack of collaboration. The breast cancer test pricing has indeed brought the whole world together to discuss the ethics and far-reaching implications of gene patenting. For those of you interested in a knowledge based, and economically strong future society and want a history and background of this important debate, you may want to read a paper by Bryn Williams-Jones, whose PhD dissertation excellently covers this topic. Its an easy, quick read. http://www.genethics.ca/personal/HistoryPatent.pdf.

Briefly, the paper shows how an international collaboration on the search for a breast cancer gene lead to Myriad US patent for BRCA1; how the second gene BRCA2 was patented by Myriad mere hours before another lab was going to announce it at a conference. It documents the development of rising international anger. It shows how Myriad grew more diverse even while it recorded losses of over $7million a year. More importantly, it reported that the US and Canada invested $3 billion and $300 million respectively to spur biotech research which presumably resulted over the years in revenue of $47 billion and $2 billion respectively. 

Investments by the government will lead to new research and patenting will spur commercialization. However, the participants must understand the various ramifications of an evolving, technologically advanced and aging society. Most therapies of the aged are going to be based on biotechnology. Aging by its very nature is genetically controlled. This debate will touch all our lives. Researchers enjoy collaborations and dislike being billed for using patented technology, resulting in less cutting-edge research on the topic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I share Rich&#8217;s frustration in the failed single entity clinical trial of Myriad&#8217;s patented products. Dale makes a very important point when he says that Patents do not require a lack of collaboration. The breast cancer test pricing has indeed brought the whole world together to discuss the ethics and far-reaching implications of gene patenting. For those of you interested in a knowledge based, and economically strong future society and want a history and background of this important debate, you may want to read a paper by Bryn Williams-Jones, whose PhD dissertation excellently covers this topic. Its an easy, quick read. <a href="http://www.genethics.ca/personal/HistoryPatent.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.genethics.ca/personal/HistoryPatent.pdf</a>.</p>
<p>Briefly, the paper shows how an international collaboration on the search for a breast cancer gene lead to Myriad US patent for BRCA1; how the second gene BRCA2 was patented by Myriad mere hours before another lab was going to announce it at a conference. It documents the development of rising international anger. It shows how Myriad grew more diverse even while it recorded losses of over $7million a year. More importantly, it reported that the US and Canada invested $3 billion and $300 million respectively to spur biotech research which presumably resulted over the years in revenue of $47 billion and $2 billion respectively. </p>
<p>Investments by the government will lead to new research and patenting will spur commercialization. However, the participants must understand the various ramifications of an evolving, technologically advanced and aging society. Most therapies of the aged are going to be based on biotechnology. Aging by its very nature is genetically controlled. This debate will touch all our lives. Researchers enjoy collaborations and dislike being billed for using patented technology, resulting in less cutting-edge research on the topic.</p>
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		<title>By: Dale B. Halling</title>
		<link>http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2009/11/02/quinn-and-koepsell-discuss-gene-patents-on-grittv/id=7087/#comment-9225</link>
		<dc:creator>Dale B. Halling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 22:22:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ipwatchdog.com/?p=7087#comment-9225</guid>
		<description>Rich, actually you comment that genetic research will continue undoubledly is not a foregone conclusion.  But what is more important is whether the same level of research will continue without patents - the answer is clearly no.  When the US has weakened its patent laws our innovation has dropped and our economy has stagnanted.  For more information see http://hallingblog.com/2009/10/26/foreigners-receive-more-patents-than-u-s/.

Your second argument about Myraid is about business strategy not about patents.  Patents do not require a lack of collaboration - in fact they are often vital to making collaboration possible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rich, actually you comment that genetic research will continue undoubledly is not a foregone conclusion.  But what is more important is whether the same level of research will continue without patents &#8211; the answer is clearly no.  When the US has weakened its patent laws our innovation has dropped and our economy has stagnanted.  For more information see <a href="http://hallingblog.com/2009/10/26/foreigners-receive-more-patents-than-u-s/" rel="nofollow">http://hallingblog.com/2009/10/26/foreigners-receive-more-patents-than-u-s/</a>.</p>
<p>Your second argument about Myraid is about business strategy not about patents.  Patents do not require a lack of collaboration &#8211; in fact they are often vital to making collaboration possible.</p>
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		<title>By: Rich Kulesus</title>
		<link>http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2009/11/02/quinn-and-koepsell-discuss-gene-patents-on-grittv/id=7087/#comment-9224</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich Kulesus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 22:08:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ipwatchdog.com/?p=7087#comment-9224</guid>
		<description>&quot;If gene patenting is stopped will genetic research continue? Undoubtedly!&quot;

With respect to Myriad and its patents, the research continues in only their labs, and their recent failure in a phase-3 clinical trial is exemplary of what happens when only one entity can PCR amplify or mass-spec separate a targeted gene: stagnation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If gene patenting is stopped will genetic research continue? Undoubtedly!&#8221;</p>
<p>With respect to Myriad and its patents, the research continues in only their labs, and their recent failure in a phase-3 clinical trial is exemplary of what happens when only one entity can PCR amplify or mass-spec separate a targeted gene: stagnation.</p>
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		<title>By: Sonali Roychoudhury</title>
		<link>http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2009/11/02/quinn-and-koepsell-discuss-gene-patents-on-grittv/id=7087/#comment-9220</link>
		<dc:creator>Sonali Roychoudhury</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 21:38:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ipwatchdog.com/?p=7087#comment-9220</guid>
		<description>I can identify with both Gene Quinn and David Koepsell in this gene patenting debate.  However, having lived in two countries and having experienced the lack of technological advance in one I have to be on Gene Quinn&#039;s side.  The value of modern technology lies in it&#039;s very ability to cure the one&#039;s you love. However, you would not trust those new technologies if they were not tested in clinical trials. A clinical trial done correctly could cost almost a billion dollars today and more for a drug in an NID today (New Initial Drug application with the FDA).  Any biotech can tell you that it is impossible to raise funds for a clinical trial without a good patent. Take the future of stem cell research as an example.

 If gene patenting is stopped will genetic research continue? Undoubtedly! However, will that research be commercialized at the current risky pace and bring life - saving drugs into society? Coming from a country where lack of patenting can drive non-genetic business, I can easily say that life - saving drugs will not originate at the current pace; it will slow to a trickle.

 Monetary rewards for genetic research have made this field the new &#039;gold rush&#039;. I have seen Pharmaceutical giants wonder why the well-paid scientists in their laboratories cannot come up with new inventions at the pace of university collaborated biotechs. Their pipelines dried up in the last decade while biotechs in the same period came up with a diagnosis and cure for breast cancer, small molecule therapies, EPO, a cure for Leukemia, and monoclonal antibody therapies and more. All of them originated through good patents and the Pharmaceutical giants are now racing to identify the lucrative ones to license. Without the current system of patents - most of these inventions would languish in respected peer - reviewed journals. 

The answer to innovation lies in the environment created by a society and government supportive of the inventor. The average inventor is creative and will do it for the &#039;fun of exploring science in all its glory&#039; and is not concerned about monetary rewards. However, one must also act on this knowledge. That is where the business minded need the support of wonderful, giving and kind people like David Koepsell.

  Every one benefits at the end of the patent term.  Generics can be sold a little above cost. Sure enough many cannot afford the $3000/- for a breast cancer test today. However, we have several public options other than stopping the patenting process:
1) let&#039;s start a foundation to cover diagnostic costs for those not covered by health care; 
2) let&#039;s participate in the current health care debate and see how we can help those in need;
3) let&#039;s set up focus groups to identify good inventions and set up a public foundation to pay a billion dollars for each and every invention which shows promise. 

Stem cell researchers have assured many investors that our current society will live well beyond the age of one hundred. Some of us will die before those inventions are marketed. Some may see in their lifetimes the clinical trials of the &#039;aging gene family&#039;. However, the rest of us will have a new worry - how do we save for a hundred years of retired living?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can identify with both Gene Quinn and David Koepsell in this gene patenting debate.  However, having lived in two countries and having experienced the lack of technological advance in one I have to be on Gene Quinn&#8217;s side.  The value of modern technology lies in it&#8217;s very ability to cure the one&#8217;s you love. However, you would not trust those new technologies if they were not tested in clinical trials. A clinical trial done correctly could cost almost a billion dollars today and more for a drug in an NID today (New Initial Drug application with the FDA).  Any biotech can tell you that it is impossible to raise funds for a clinical trial without a good patent. Take the future of stem cell research as an example.</p>
<p> If gene patenting is stopped will genetic research continue? Undoubtedly! However, will that research be commercialized at the current risky pace and bring life &#8211; saving drugs into society? Coming from a country where lack of patenting can drive non-genetic business, I can easily say that life &#8211; saving drugs will not originate at the current pace; it will slow to a trickle.</p>
<p> Monetary rewards for genetic research have made this field the new &#8216;gold rush&#8217;. I have seen Pharmaceutical giants wonder why the well-paid scientists in their laboratories cannot come up with new inventions at the pace of university collaborated biotechs. Their pipelines dried up in the last decade while biotechs in the same period came up with a diagnosis and cure for breast cancer, small molecule therapies, EPO, a cure for Leukemia, and monoclonal antibody therapies and more. All of them originated through good patents and the Pharmaceutical giants are now racing to identify the lucrative ones to license. Without the current system of patents &#8211; most of these inventions would languish in respected peer &#8211; reviewed journals. </p>
<p>The answer to innovation lies in the environment created by a society and government supportive of the inventor. The average inventor is creative and will do it for the &#8216;fun of exploring science in all its glory&#8217; and is not concerned about monetary rewards. However, one must also act on this knowledge. That is where the business minded need the support of wonderful, giving and kind people like David Koepsell.</p>
<p>  Every one benefits at the end of the patent term.  Generics can be sold a little above cost. Sure enough many cannot afford the $3000/- for a breast cancer test today. However, we have several public options other than stopping the patenting process:<br />
1) let&#8217;s start a foundation to cover diagnostic costs for those not covered by health care;<br />
2) let&#8217;s participate in the current health care debate and see how we can help those in need;<br />
3) let&#8217;s set up focus groups to identify good inventions and set up a public foundation to pay a billion dollars for each and every invention which shows promise. </p>
<p>Stem cell researchers have assured many investors that our current society will live well beyond the age of one hundred. Some of us will die before those inventions are marketed. Some may see in their lifetimes the clinical trials of the &#8216;aging gene family&#8217;. However, the rest of us will have a new worry &#8211; how do we save for a hundred years of retired living?</p>
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		<title>By: Dale B. Halling</title>
		<link>http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2009/11/02/quinn-and-koepsell-discuss-gene-patents-on-grittv/id=7087/#comment-8984</link>
		<dc:creator>Dale B. Halling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 18:35:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ipwatchdog.com/?p=7087#comment-8984</guid>
		<description>Mike the scarcity argument is nonsense.  Scarcity is not the basis of property rights and inventions are subject to scarcity.  Inventions are subject to scarcity in their creation - it takes, time, talent and resources to create an invention.  Inventions are subject to scarcity in their diffusion - that is why we have college professors, marketing people, sale people. lawyers and doctors.  The scarcity argument confuses cause with effect.  Property rights are a good way allocating scarce resources, but that is result not the justification for property rights.  For more information see &lt;a href=&quot;http://hallingblog.com/2009/06/22/scarcity-%E2%80%93-does-it-prove-intellectual-property-is-unjustified/&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://hallingblog.com/2009/06/22/scarcity-%E2%80%93-does-it-prove-intellectual-property-is-unjustified/&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike the scarcity argument is nonsense.  Scarcity is not the basis of property rights and inventions are subject to scarcity.  Inventions are subject to scarcity in their creation &#8211; it takes, time, talent and resources to create an invention.  Inventions are subject to scarcity in their diffusion &#8211; that is why we have college professors, marketing people, sale people. lawyers and doctors.  The scarcity argument confuses cause with effect.  Property rights are a good way allocating scarce resources, but that is result not the justification for property rights.  For more information see <a href="http://hallingblog.com/2009/06/22/scarcity-%E2%80%93-does-it-prove-intellectual-property-is-unjustified/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://hallingblog.com/2009/06/22/scarcity-%E2%80%93-does-it-prove-intellectual-property-is-unjustified/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Gene Quinn</title>
		<link>http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2009/11/02/quinn-and-koepsell-discuss-gene-patents-on-grittv/id=7087/#comment-8982</link>
		<dc:creator>Gene Quinn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 18:26:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ipwatchdog.com/?p=7087#comment-8982</guid>
		<description>Mike-

To the extent the Swiss were innovative it was because they obtained patent rights, not in spite of patent rights.  

With respect to taking an unfair advantage, everyone from other countries who uses the US patent process to obtain rights they cannot get in their home countries has an unfair advantage compared to US inventors and innovators, and that should stop.  

I think the solution here is to simply say that inventors and innovators are not allowed to use the US patent process unless they grant the same scope of exclusive rights as granted in the US.  That would quickly demonstrate the need for strong patent protections.

-Gene</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike-</p>
<p>To the extent the Swiss were innovative it was because they obtained patent rights, not in spite of patent rights.  </p>
<p>With respect to taking an unfair advantage, everyone from other countries who uses the US patent process to obtain rights they cannot get in their home countries has an unfair advantage compared to US inventors and innovators, and that should stop.  </p>
<p>I think the solution here is to simply say that inventors and innovators are not allowed to use the US patent process unless they grant the same scope of exclusive rights as granted in the US.  That would quickly demonstrate the need for strong patent protections.</p>
<p>-Gene</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Masnick</title>
		<link>http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2009/11/02/quinn-and-koepsell-discuss-gene-patents-on-grittv/id=7087/#comment-8981</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Masnick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 18:24:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ipwatchdog.com/?p=7087#comment-8981</guid>
		<description>Dale, I do not know your economics background, but your explanation here is flat out incorrect.

You are incorrect that &quot;in all areas of economics&quot; property rights encourage economic activity.  In fact, our newest Nobel prizing winning economist has spent much of her career proving that is incorrect.  I am a HUGE believer in property rights, but they only make sense in situations where there is a question of how to best allocate resources.  The entire point of a market-based property rights system is to allow for the more efficient allocation of a scarce resource.

But the problem is that once you enter into a world where the resource is not scarce -- such as an &quot;idea&quot; -- economists will tell you that a property rights system makes no sense at all.  That&#039;s because you don&#039;t need efficient allocation when there&#039;s abundance.  In fact, all a property rights situation does in that case is increase transaction costs in order to decrease market efficiency.

Finally, I fail to see how a claim that &quot;monopolies are bad&quot; is extraordinary.  In fact, the burden is quite clearly on you.  Economists make it quite clear that monopolies lead to less efficient outcomes.  Yet, you are claiming that this is not true when it comes to patents.  That is an extraordinary claim, and you fail to provide a shred of evidence as to why such basic economics does not apply to patents.

We have seen study after study after study that looks at the history of innovation in places without patents or with weaker patents.  It has been compared to neighboring countries with stronger patent systems.  They have been compared to right after or right before changes in the patent system occur, and they ALL show the same thing: a patent system does not increase the pace of innovation and often decreases it.

There is plenty of evidence to support that position.  There is none to support your extraordinary claim that monopoly rights suddenly make sense when they make no sense in any other area of the economy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dale, I do not know your economics background, but your explanation here is flat out incorrect.</p>
<p>You are incorrect that &#8220;in all areas of economics&#8221; property rights encourage economic activity.  In fact, our newest Nobel prizing winning economist has spent much of her career proving that is incorrect.  I am a HUGE believer in property rights, but they only make sense in situations where there is a question of how to best allocate resources.  The entire point of a market-based property rights system is to allow for the more efficient allocation of a scarce resource.</p>
<p>But the problem is that once you enter into a world where the resource is not scarce &#8212; such as an &#8220;idea&#8221; &#8212; economists will tell you that a property rights system makes no sense at all.  That&#8217;s because you don&#8217;t need efficient allocation when there&#8217;s abundance.  In fact, all a property rights situation does in that case is increase transaction costs in order to decrease market efficiency.</p>
<p>Finally, I fail to see how a claim that &#8220;monopolies are bad&#8221; is extraordinary.  In fact, the burden is quite clearly on you.  Economists make it quite clear that monopolies lead to less efficient outcomes.  Yet, you are claiming that this is not true when it comes to patents.  That is an extraordinary claim, and you fail to provide a shred of evidence as to why such basic economics does not apply to patents.</p>
<p>We have seen study after study after study that looks at the history of innovation in places without patents or with weaker patents.  It has been compared to neighboring countries with stronger patent systems.  They have been compared to right after or right before changes in the patent system occur, and they ALL show the same thing: a patent system does not increase the pace of innovation and often decreases it.</p>
<p>There is plenty of evidence to support that position.  There is none to support your extraordinary claim that monopoly rights suddenly make sense when they make no sense in any other area of the economy.</p>
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		<title>By: Dale B. Halling</title>
		<link>http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2009/11/02/quinn-and-koepsell-discuss-gene-patents-on-grittv/id=7087/#comment-8979</link>
		<dc:creator>Dale B. Halling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 18:15:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ipwatchdog.com/?p=7087#comment-8979</guid>
		<description>Property rights are not an unfair advantage.  The Swiss innovated in part because they were able to get all the benefits of a patent system without having the burden of having to operate a patent system.  It’s a classic free rider problem - much like the rest of the world taking advantage of US pharmaceutical research, but not paying for it.

The anti-patent crowed has failed to carry its burden of proof.  Ae know that in all areas of economics where it has been tested private property rights encourage economic activity.  We also know that when the government establishes incentives, it always results in more of the incentivized activity.  We also know that countries with the strongest patent laws have the most innovation and the greatest technology diffusion and vice versa those countries with weak or non-existent patent laws have little or no innovation and little technology innovation.  Despite this the anti-patent crowd asks us to believe that patents do not follow the normal rules of economics and logic.  As Thomas Paine pointed out in his book The Age of Reason, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  The anti-patent crowd has failed to provide extraordinary evidence to support their extraordinary claims.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Property rights are not an unfair advantage.  The Swiss innovated in part because they were able to get all the benefits of a patent system without having the burden of having to operate a patent system.  It’s a classic free rider problem &#8211; much like the rest of the world taking advantage of US pharmaceutical research, but not paying for it.</p>
<p>The anti-patent crowed has failed to carry its burden of proof.  Ae know that in all areas of economics where it has been tested private property rights encourage economic activity.  We also know that when the government establishes incentives, it always results in more of the incentivized activity.  We also know that countries with the strongest patent laws have the most innovation and the greatest technology diffusion and vice versa those countries with weak or non-existent patent laws have little or no innovation and little technology innovation.  Despite this the anti-patent crowd asks us to believe that patents do not follow the normal rules of economics and logic.  As Thomas Paine pointed out in his book The Age of Reason, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  The anti-patent crowd has failed to provide extraordinary evidence to support their extraordinary claims.</p>
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